The Changing State of Talent Acquisition

#71: Process First, Tools Second: Real AI Results from Healthcare Recruiting

• Graham Thornton • Season 6 • Episode 71

Share episode

Yvette Hansen has spent nearly two decades leading talent acquisition at major health systems: UnitedHealth Group, Optum, Amedisys, and most recently as Director of TA & Belonging at Baylor Scott & White Health. In that time, she's learned that healthcare doesn't let you chase shiny tools. High stakes, compliance requirements, and tight labor markets force a process-first mindset.

But Yvette's also honest about what disappoints: vendors who oversell integration capabilities, tools that look great in demos but disrupt recruiter workflows, and the gap between "we can do that" and actually doing it. One vendor demo promised seamless integration. When implementation started? "Not so much."

One surprising insight: healthcare is no longer lagging in tech adoption. Health systems have moved to the front of the pack on responsible AI implementation, proving that constraints can drive better outcomes.

For TA leaders drowning in vendor pitches and paralyzed by options, this episode delivers a practical roadmap.

SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to the Changing State of Talent Acquisition podcast with your host, Graham Thornton. Each episode brings you unfiltered conversations about the tools, trends, and technologies impacting the future of talent acquisition. Our guests share their stories on what's working, what's hype, and what's actually helping companies hire better and grow faster. Have feedback or want to join the show? Head on over to Tollibity.com to learn more. But now we're on to this week's episode.

SPEAKER_03:

And that really started as a foundation that shaped everything because it really taught me how deeply the hiring process affects both candidates and hiring teams. I would get letters and cards that's back before email was very popular from candidates about how this was affecting their family, not just a job. So I realized quickly that it wasn't really about filling a job or filling a role. It was really about how I was making people feel. And that really was a turning point for me because it really made me look at the entire process end to end and made me realize that there was bottlenecks in the process about where people, it wasn't about people working harder. It was really about workflows and technology. If we really wanted to affect change and how we were helping candidates, it was really going to be about what workflow made the most sense to reach the candidate where they are in that moment and what when when did that moment really matter? So it really led me into sourcing, uh, recruitment marketing, and ultimately building TA infrastructures. So I've done everything from standing up sourcing and branding teams, depleming CRMs, automation and AI. And that's really allowed me to blend innovation with empathy, like I said, really understanding the candidate, launching automation and AI programs that made hiring both faster and more human. And today my focus is on the intersection of AI, ethics, and belonging. So building systems that are efficient, fair, but also reflective of the people that they serve. So I'm essentially interested in how TA can evolve from that transactional functional that we've seen it be to a true intelligence engine that's predicting needs, that engages the passive talent, and shapes organizational readiness.

SPEAKER_02:

And I think that your you know your background really kind of leans into the human and uh in human resources too. You know, before we get started, you know, more deeply on the humanity aspect and you know connecting humanity and technology, you know, you mentioned in our pre-call that you know you've worked with recruitics for about 15 years, and you know, I would say from a partnership standpoint, you know, that's a pretty long vendor relationship in this industry. You know, many partnerships often you know kind of flame out after a handful of years, you know, an implementation and the honeymoon period ends. You know, I'm just curious, from a partnership lens, you know, what's made your partnerships with Recruitics last?

SPEAKER_03:

You're right. I will say, Graham, a 15-year vendor relationship is rare and TA. Um I think it works because the relationship with Recruittics was never transactional. No matter what organization I was with, because I've worked with Recruits in multiple organizations, it really became an extension of whatever team I was on. So we shared goals, data, challenges, and they gave us full transparency into their roadmap so we could co-create solutions. I think back to when I originally started working with them, and the focus was really about programmatic distribution and basic campaign tracking. But that partnership evolved into full funnel analytics, UTM and attribution modeling, competitive insights. They even advised on emerging tech and AI use cases, which was really beneficial as we started to dip our toe in that world. And then my work started to expand into talent intelligence, market disruption analysis, and of course, AI strategy. And what I loved about recruitics is they were willing to evolve right alongside that work. Ultimately, the longevity came from aligning on outcomes and not deliverables. And as we both know, or anybody who's in this industry knows, recruitment marketing isn't static. It shifts with the labor market, technology, of course, our brands, and they grow with you at every step of the way. Ultimately, our work was built on trust and shared learning and continuous innovation, and it wasn't just about the contract at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, no, I think that's great. And I think you know, the recruitment marketing and recruitment landscape in a gen in general continues to evolve. You know, we've done a call, well, probably a half dozen calls just this week talking about boy, like what's the future of SEO? And, you know, are we going to coin this new phrase geo, generative search optimization, and you know, and pushing back and like, hey, the reality is, you know, it's recruitment marketing is just evolved from newspapers to job boards to you know programmatic advertising and you know, social media and you know, Google ads, but at the end of the way, end of the day, it's still recruitment marketing. And I think you know, we're seeing a similar path with you know search engine optimization. You know, generative search is just a new search engine. So we're still optimizing search for you know AI search for chat GPT for Gemini and you know, whatever, I'll get off my soapbox. So, you know, that I think that is a pretty good segue into you know what I want to talk about. And you know, you know, let's talk a little bit more about healthcare, maybe more specifically. So, you know, you spent your entire career in health systems, whether it's United Health, you know, Optum, you know, Baylor, Scott, and white, you know, I think that it's probably easy to say healthcare is notoriously challenging, you know, high volume, tight labor markets, you know, clinical roles from some very, very specific credentials, you know, maybe compliance complexity, we can go on and on. You know, I'm curious, you know, from you know, from a healthcare lens, you know, how did some of you know maybe your healthcare constraints shape how you think about technology adoption? You know, I can imagine that, you know, you know, when you're in healthcare, you can't just implement any new flashy tool that comes your way. So, you know, are you seeing healthcare lag, lead when it comes to technology implementation, maybe AI adoption and recruiting?

SPEAKER_03:

You know, that's a really great question. And I do believe healthcare used to lag in tech adoption. I don't believe that's true any longer. I would dare to say that in the last few years, health systems have moved to the front of the pack, leading the industry in responsible, human-centered AI across town engagement, forecasting, and workflow automation. But you are absolutely also right in the fact that healthcare is a very unique animal. You've got high volume, high stakes, deeply regulated. So, of course, we can't chase every shiny new tool that comes in front of us. Every tech decision has to be tied back to compliance, scalability, and ultimately patient care. So when I think about that, it really forced me into a process first, a problem first mindset. And when I what I mean when I say that is I map out the workflow. I find the friction points, the gaps, um, the pain points, whatever you want to call it. And then you choose the technology that actually improves the experience in that space, whether it's recruiters, hiring managers, candidates themselves, and you really look for a goal that introduces AI in purposeful ways. So is it going to automate the screening and scheduling? Are you using it for predictive insights to engage passive talent? Are you freeing recruiters to do higher value work? You basically want to automate for efficiency, but that shouldn't be the only goal. The goal should really be about improving the candidate and the patient in experience. And I think that's what healthcare is focusing on right now. The industry as a whole is looking at that today.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So, you know, maybe a good quite good place to start then is like in your world, where did you first start experimenting then with AI and recruiting? Was it, you know, was it more in the, hey, we're trying to automate X, Y, and Z, or was there a particular moment in time when you said, boy, you know, this is going to change how we work, you know, we need to, you know, we need to set up X now?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, that's a that's a really great question. And I'm thinking back to what was my real, my first real exposure to AI? And I, and if I think back, it probably was right around 2018 when everybody started exploring conversational bots and automation within their CRM technology. And I think back then most of us saw AI as a way to speed up administrative work, right? Like scheduling and screening and follow-ups and like reminders on our like these automatic reminders and things like that. Nobody really saw them as game changers. I think the moment that changed for me was during a it was recent actually. It was during a pilot that I was leading using an AI voice agent to conduct the first round candidate screens. And it was, it was a really, it was really eye-opening because within a few weeks the system had processed hundreds of applicants, not just processed and interviewed them, but it assessed them and scored them. And one of the surprises that um I found in reviewing the data was the quality didn't drop, it actually improved. We saw that candidates felt more informed, recruiters were gaining hours back in their day, hiring managers were getting better shortlists of candidates faster, and it was making them more happy. So it was the real it was that moment that I realized this isn't incremental, this fundamentally changes how we work. And so what I what I realized then is that AI is not a plug-in. It has to be treated as part of the core recruiting infrastructure, something that we could connect the entire talent journey on. So from attraction to alumni. So even in the employee journey itself, when you think about the employee journey, it really should start from the attraction perspective all the way to alumni. And I do believe AI is going to be core in making sure that we can tie it all together.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so Yvette, I think that's a really interesting piece. And you know, I wonder if we could unpack that a little bit more. So, you know, I think we hear a lot that, you know, for the last however many months and years, that you know, people are afraid that AI is going to get it wrong, AI is gonna take our jobs and and whatnot. But you know, I think in your example you said, you know, hey, like you found that you know AI running, I'll say, you know, almost first-round interviews or screenings with candidates did a on par or better job in servicing and you know, and screening out and identifying the right candidates. And you know, I think a few years ago, or you know, maybe a year ago, we heard you know, that hey, candidates are fine with AI getting them further around in the process, you know, as long as it's a you know a personalized experience, right? And they don't feel like you know, they're just being passed on to a you know to a bot and to an agent. And I would almost argue that, you know, from a consumer lens, it's no different than you know, people used to hate when you know an AI chatbot used to pop up. But if it can get me my answer to my question faster, I'm okay with that. You know, are you kind of seeing a similar balance play out with our you know AI sort of screening and interviewing tools? You know, given maybe it's a hey, a high volume of candidates are coming through. Hey, if I'm you know a qualified candidate, you know, I'm more than happy to engage with an AI generated interview if it's going to help me advance through the process faster. Is that kind of what you're um seeing from a balance, or am I you know making a bit of a leap?

SPEAKER_03:

Oh no, no, no, Graham. That's exactly what we're seeing. I I think today I look at AI as that bridge between efficiency and empathy. It it frees up the ability to focus on the human moments that really matter and think about what a human moment that really matters is. When a candidate applies for a job, and if there if it's a high volume role where you're getting, let's say, a hundred candidates a day, maybe, maybe more even, um, a recruiter does not have the time to look through that many applicants. So historically, the recruiter will go through the most current, the applicants that appear to be the best fit, who applied the soonest, or maybe the first ones who applied, but they don't get them all. Now, an agent can come in and screen every single applicant. So, what does that do for the recruiter? It obviously gives them, serves them up the best of all the applicants who applied, not just the ones they were able to get connected with within the timeframe that they had. And what does that do for the candidate? But it takes away that black hole. Because how many times have you heard, and you've seen this on Glassdoor, you've seen it on Comparably, and all these other places where candidates can leave reviews, is that they feel like they're not important. There's a black hole, they apply and never hear anything. So now you're getting rid of that feedback. You're saying, we're gonna take that away because now we've given you an opportunity to actually be screened by somebody and get assessed. And I think the technology is going to advance and give candidates an opportunity to even maybe forego recruit resumes, and maybe we can start um giving agents an opportunity to give feedback, right? So like they can say, I can apply for a job, or I go to apply for a job, and this is somebody, this isn't my idea. Somebody told me this, that this is their idea. They want to be able to apply for a job and instead of a resume, talk to an agent and say, and the agent asks dynamic questions, right? And then I can ask the agent questions, and at the end of my conversation, the agent can honestly tell me, hey, that you applied for this job, and based on what you've shared today, you're about a 75% fit. We have 30 other candidates who are a hundred percent fit. We don't think this job is right for you, but why don't you keep looking and we'll serve you up other jobs that might be a better fit for you based on what you shared today? Like I think that's where their technology is going, and I think candidates are going to be more and more appreciative that we're giving them an opportunity to not just share about their experience, but get feedback on why they are fit for this role or why they may not be the best fit for this role.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, well, you know, I would say I think that's a great parallel to you know what we're seeing in the evolution of you know SEO. And so, you know, the way I've been explaining it lately is you know, you think about you know how people use Google, it's you know you're essentially yelling into a search engine. It's you know, jobs near me, it's pizza restaurants. And you know, great, that's you know, and and websites have been built to optimize for short keywords that they want to capture. And you know, because of that, you have all these content farms where you know everyone's writing you know, 500 blog posts about pizza restaurants or jobs. And you know, the whole goal is we want to make sure that we're showing up higher on Google and you know getting on the first page or second page with links. And I think you know, what you know AI is kind of injecting in here, you know, with generative search becoming more important, people you know, using Chat GPT and Gemini, you know, is you know, you're having conversations with a chat, you know, with a uh generative search agent, an LLM, and it is much more like the scenario that you just described, Yvette. And it's you know, hey, I, you know, I'm looking for, I'm a you know, I'm a nurse with five years of experience. I move into the Dallas Fort Worth area. Here's where my credentials are. I'm looking for a company that has, you know, has leadership opportunities, you know, and or continuing education benefits and you know, great work-life balance where I won't have to work weekends. And like people can have a literal conversation like that with ChatGPT, with Gemini, and it will pop out, you know, employers that you know fit that match are looking for those types of candidates or provide those types of you know benefits. And I think the challenge is you know, companies are having to evolve their search strategy to make sure that they have the content or the context that you know match those deep conversations that you know candidates want to have. And so I think the scenario that you just described is you know what we're kind of seeing play out in real time in generative search. And now instead of racing for you know keywords in the first page on Google, you know, we have companies that are racing to make sure that all the good things that they are known for, or all the good reasons why people should go work for an organization, you know, we have to go fight for real estate in LLMs and generative search models, right? And so I think we're not far off, uh maybe not far off as a stretch, but I think we're I think we're progressing towards you know the state that you kind of described, Yvette. And like I hope we get there. Because again, like I think you know it's it's a similar challenge where you know Google search has gotten a bit gummed up with, you know, it's too many people trying to fight for links on page one. And I think it's probably a similar standpoint when it looks at you know how easy it's gotten to apply to jobs and you know, integrate applies everywhere, and I can open up a requisition and I get a hundred applications in a day, sure, but how many of them are the right people? So I, you know, I can see the pendulum swinging back towards the candidate, you know, in a few different ways with the you know, call it a the assist of um of AI.

SPEAKER_03:

I completely agree with you. And I and I think we are headed in that direction, Graham. And I would agree with you that it is in the best interest of the candidate. And I think that's why recruitment marketing is so important. I think that making sure that employers are marketing why, what's that employee value proposition? What are you promising to your potential employers and making it authentic and genuine? And because that's ultimately what candidates are doing, especially today in the during the era of the great stay, right? Like they're not gonna make a move unless they really feel like you're gonna give them what they have, what they're looking for.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah. No, I completely agree. Well, I want to talk a little bit more about you know the realities of AI implementations. You know, I think it's a great segue. So, you know, I think you recently presented, uh, it might have been two, three weeks ago at this point at LinkedIn Talent Connect. I think you're presenting with David Barr about you know using AI to personalize talent engagement. And I know that's kind of an area that's near and dear to your heart. You know, I'm curious, you know, let's talk about what's actually working from a talent engagement standpoint. Where is where do you see kind of AI delivering value in your recruitment process? Not just, you know, where vendors promise it you know is gonna work, but where where are you personally seeing measurable improvement with you know with AI?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I I think AI has been most valuable in specific repeatable parts of recruiting. Um the biggest wins I've seen are in the areas of things like personalized engagement. So AI allows us to nurture passive talent at scale with textual messaging, often doubling engagement versus that generic outreach. Screening and scheduling, also another area where we've seen AI. I know talked about voice agents and chatbots, but that dramatically reduces admin work. I mean, one team can cut time to screen by over 60% by implementing a voice agent or a chat bot. And then the other area where I've seen some big wins is in the predictive insights side. Uh, talent insights helps forecast hiring needs as well as spot the market disruptions. So teams can source proactively versus reactively, which is what you want your teams to do. I mean, that's what we're going towards that model of is being more proactive, reaching the paths of talent, but we have to give them some triggers, like where should we go first? Like, um kind of like a bullseye approach. Let's start here and then fan ourselves out. And then I do think that there are some areas where there's still opportunity for AI. I think that there's been some disappointment around the integration. I think it's still a major challenge because even great tools lose value when they don't play well with legacy systems or they disrupt the recruiter workflow. That's why I think it's so important to do the front-end work, which is that recruiter workflow analysis, and then identify what tool what tool makes the most sense before you just go buy the tool and try to implement it.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, well, I I've always said, you know, integration is the most poorly used word in in HR tech. And you know, I stand by that today. I do think that I think it's gotten better, it's gotten easier, and you know, integration doesn't uh scare as many people, you know, but you know, integration doesn't mean you know, provides a link to a job posting. That's you know, it's a very different integration, I think, what people would truly mean. So I I guess I'd say a harder question than, you know, where would you say AI has kind of disappointed you the most? Is it in that integration area?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I think so. In the integration, that and I think the other area would probably be um the overselling from vendors. You know, it's it's comical to think about it, but like when you do a vendor demo, they show you every bell and whistle. And I think, Graham, one of the things that I have noticed is that integration, it's it's more used today. You're right, it was an underused word, but it's more used today. But I think vendors are so quick to say, yeah, we can integrate, no problem. Open API, no problem. And then when the rubber hits the road, it's like, oh no, not so much, not so not as seamless as we thought it was going to be. So I think that that's where I there's still some challenges.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, well, I I think the bigger challenge, and we see this just in the news everywhere, is like everyone is being tasked to, you know, use the AI somehow. And I think that there are a lot of vendors that are taken advantage of that fact, right? And you know, when we go through our practices, it's you know, sure, like you can use AI, and like, you know, everyone can go by a Gartner report and you know figure out that, yep, they aren't using AI enough, or they should use it in employer brand or in their process. But you know, the bigger problem is doing the work to map out you know where and why, and you know, more importantly, probably what problems you're gonna solve, you know, how much time it's taking to do X, Y, and Z. And like if we're gonna prioritize AI to you know something as simple as automate scheduling, right? Or you know, screen out candidates that you know simply don't live in the US. You know, I think that there are a lot of you know low-hanging fruit areas, and and I think way too often you know, companies jump to the you know, the holy grail, we're gonna buy acts system if it's going to find candidates and deliver the top three that are already pre-screened and and ready to start tomorrow. And I think the reality is you know somewhere in between, right? And I think we need to sometimes maybe admit that there's some limitations to where we wanna um where we want to start. But hey, we're not a vendor anymore.

SPEAKER_03:

So this is a great and sometimes admit this isn't this product doesn't do everything you need it to do, right? Like it does 80% of what you want it to do, and we can work on that last 20% if you help us. Like, let's be a partner in this. I think vendors shouldn't be afraid to say that, but they are so afraid to say that because they're afraid they're gonna lose the deal. But ultimately, if you end up with a product that doesn't get adopted because it doesn't do everything we thought it was going to do, then everybody loses. So I think that's one of the areas a vendor should probably be a little bit more open to.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I'm I'm reminded of uh an old boss of mine who said, you know, he was sitting in vendor demos and you know it was who knows? We'll say it was with bullhorn, you know, and and then bullhorn sales rep was promising them could do X, it could do Y, it could do Z, you know, and and then one guy, you know, at Bullhorn said, Well, no, no, no, no. It actually it can't do Z. And you know, sales rep kind of cut him off, said, No, it could do it. And you know, remember our old boss said, No, that's the guy I want in the room every time. The guy that tells me what it can't do. And we can, you know, we can do, you know, if we could do seven out of ten things, that's still better than you know, than than where we're at today, you know, but we'd rather do seven things well, you know, than than overpromise at uh at this point. And so I think there's a lot of value in boy, transparency and a vendor agnostic sort of lens to, you know, hey, if it doesn't do everything, that's okay. Let's just make sure they can do all the things that we're seeing.

SPEAKER_03:

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, one thing you shared on LinkedIn, and I'm gonna paraphrase it and get it close to right, is you know, in your world, you think AI can enhance creativity and not, you know, not replace it. And you know, I think that you know, your point was it's uh it's a reminder that technology, if if it's used kind of thoughtfully, can amplify our humanity rather than diminish it, right? And and I think that you know that's probably a different framing than you know most of us are seeing and hearing at conferences. You know, many vendors are selling efficiency and automation, but you are kind of talking about you know humanity and belonging. And you know, I know it's literally in many of your titles, right? And so maybe walk me through how that philosophy you know shows up in your shows up in your work.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I think um I've always believed that technology should expand our capacity for connection, not replace it. So AI is most powerful when we can remove friction, not feeling, and create a space for the work only humans can do. And that is practice empathy, tell our story and our brand, and express belonging. So I think that that's really important. The philosophy can guide you through implementation with AI is looking at the design of everything. So start starting with the moments that matter, like improving candidate feedback, looking at the recruiter workload, or even a new hire's first day, and then making sure that you have open communication with your team, framing AI as giving recruiters time back for real conversations, maybe elevating their role to a talent advisor, or there's a new term, talent agent, or talent business partner, whatever term you want to use. But it's not really to replace them, it's really to elevate their role. And then, of course, culture, because I think about AI technology and I think about the prompts that we're using. So prompts and chat flows should still really reflect empathy and inclusion because those small details scale culture. So when I think about that, it's like we have to really think about how it's making the experience more human at scale. And AI should amplify our culture and not replace it, and it shouldn't just be about the speed, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah. No, I think it totally does. And I think like, you know, even some of the examples of you know, where we're going with generative search, I think, you know, for the right organizations that you know implemented or action correctly, like, you know, AI and and LLM and generative search is going to give us a chance to share our stories and share our culture a lot more broadly and a lot more deeply than you know, you typically would get in, you know, Arg at least, you know, SEO that would you know maybe penalize or reward the wrong players in that space too. So I think I'm I think we're in a in a very interesting spot in kind of bridging that gap between you know humanity and and technology and you know, and using that to really shine the light on you know more deeper stories within organizations and cultures as a whole. Well, talk to me about you know a TA leader, you know, sitting in their office then right now, Yvette. We've talked a lot about AI. I think a lot of executives are getting pressure from the C-suite to do something with AI, you know, the drowning vendor pitches, as we've kind of said, you know, most vendor pitches end with we can do everything, you know, and so I think there's oftentimes a lot of you know paralysis around not knowing where to start. And so, you know, if you had some advice for you know the overwhelmed TA leader, you know, that's sitting there getting pressure from the C-suite to do something with AI, you know, what's what's one piece of advice you'd give to you know a town acquisition leader today? What would that be?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, my one piece of advice would be to start small, measure fast, and design for adoption, not perfection. So don't go in trying to overhaul your whole tech stack at once. Pick one pain point that's measurable, like screening or candidate engagement. And prove the value there first. Build trust with your recruiters early, because that's key to adoption, by being transparent about what the tool does and doesn't do to our point earlier. Make adoption a KPI. Because at the end of the day, you can buy the best AI on the market. But if your team doesn't trust it or it doesn't fit the workflow, you'll never see the ROI. So the most successful pilots I've led, I didn't consider tech projects. I considered them change management initiatives that were focused on helping people that work smarter, not differently.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I think that's great. Well, I think that's a good place for us to close. I got a couple quick hit, quick hits for you, If that. So, you know, first one, it's contrarian take time. So, you know, what's your most contrarian prediction about talent acquisition technology? You know, what's what's something that ever thinks is gonna happen that you might disagree with?

SPEAKER_03:

I think that the future of TA isn't about more automation. It's gonna be about more curation and connection. I think everyone assumes AI is gonna replace recruiters, but I think the real advantage is gonna come from teams who use it to deepen human connection. I think automation is at this day and age, it's table stakes. Trust and personalization will be the true different differentiators. I think the next phase won't be about who has the most tools. It's gonna be about who uses them most intentionally to make the experience feel more human, transparent, and authentic.

SPEAKER_02:

All right, I like that. Okay, well, the last question that I ask everyone is so what are you reading or listening to do these days? And you know, how are you learning and staying ahead of this curve?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, so I listen to a lot of podcasts. Um, one of my favorites is Astra, which is the American Society for Healthcare Human Resources Administration. So it hits close to home and it's a if they're quick listens. I think they're like 25, 30 minute listens. I I'll listen to them while I'm lifting or running or something. It's a podcast that's hosted by Luke Kerrigan and Bo Brabo, and they have such a diverse mix of healthcare leaders that share their experiences, their Successes and my favorite they're lessons learned because why make the mistake if you don't have to if you can learn from someone else?

SPEAKER_02:

I know Luke Kerrigan. He used to work at Career Builder. Is he a Phenom? I think he was at Phenom for a while.

SPEAKER_03:

He's at Phenom now, yes.

SPEAKER_02:

You know what? I don't know if Luke's listening, but like I hired, I tried to hire Luke for a sales engineering job probably 15 years ago at this point, and he had a better job offer. But he's very uh always a big fan of Luke. So yeah, I I know him very well.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, he's fantastic. He's so personable, and like I said, his podcast is awesome.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, that's great. Well, Luke, or tag you in this one for sure. Um, big fan. So oh that's great. Okay, well, last question. We'll list everything. Um, we'll link out to your LinkedIn profile for sure, Yvette. But you know, for folks that want to connect with you or follow your work, you know, where should they find you?

SPEAKER_03:

So obviously LinkedIn, but you can always reach out to me at evet at evethanson.com.

SPEAKER_02:

Awesome. Love it. Well, we'll link that in the show notes, uh, your email, your LinkedIn. Um, and again, it's been a great conversation. So really appreciate you joining us.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you so much for having me. All right, thanks for tuning in. As always, head on over to changestate.io or shoot us a note on all the social media. We'd love to hear from you, and we'll check you guys next week.